DiCarlo: So it sounds like we are trying to shift certain patterns of thinking which, on another level, you could say are patterns of energy?

King: Exactly.

DiCarlo: ... and that requires conscious intent on our part?

King: Let's put it this way, conscious intent helps us to get to where we want to go instead of drifting with the tide. In Polynesian thinking, we like to use the metaphor of a sailboat moving across the ocean. The wind is blowing, and while you don't control the wind you can control the set of the sail. In the same way, you don't get where you are going unless you have a destination in mind.

DiCarlo: It's apparent that the subconscious mind plays an important role in creating our personal reality. How do we know when the subconscious mind is operating in our life?

King: Well it's always operating. It's not always operating the way we want it to. We can tell if this is so by the effects that we have.

DiCarlo: But how does it manifest in our lives...when do we experience it in operation?

King: For most people, the most direct experience of its operation would be in the body itself. In the functioning of the body, and the operation of our habits that take place without our conscious intention.

DiCarlo: So the subconscious I take it, would be the domicile of our beliefs?

King: A way to put it is that, it's like the holder. It's like the record keeper.

DiCarlo: It seems to me that while someone might consciously espouse certain beliefs, subconsciously they might hold entirely different-even conflicting beliefs.

King: Yes, that's true. It can hold several conflicting ideas because it's the record keeper. At various times, we can be influenced by this thing or that thing, or this person or that person, and record it all. We start to get real confusing results in our lives when these different beliefs begin to conflict in a given situation.

DiCarlo: You have made an interesting statement: "Your potential energy is infinite. Your effective energy is limited by your subconscious beliefs and habits."

King: Potentially, we have all the energy of the universe because we are part of that whole. But effectively, we can't access that energy unless we have beliefs that are compatible. So the beliefs are like the governors on an automobile engine that limit the speed of the car. They are the filters and tracks we set-up that keep us from being able to do something different, or keep us from being aware sometimes that there is something different. This can be creative-there's such a thing as creative limitation that allows us to focus and not be distracted by other things-but often in people's lives these limitations are not constructive, they are inhibiting.

DiCarlo: What would be some of the common misconceptions people have about the subconscious self?

King: A lot of people think that the subconscious is something separate from them-that it's something that you have to fight and conquer. All this does is create a lot of internal conflict with one's self. Other people equate it to Freud's idea of the "id" and then make it the repository of everything that is bad about them. They then try to get away from it, and are afraid of it. These things interfere a great deal with a person's happiness and their growth.

DiCarlo: Would you say that the subconscious is less aware than the conscious?

King: Not at all. It's much more aware. This is another misconception. Some people separate subconscious from the body, and that doesn't work. The two are intimate. Our body is aware of far more than our conscious mind can ever aware of at any moment in time. A lot of psychological studies have shown that the conscious mind is able to handle a maximum of seven to nine concepts at any one time. Nine is a real stretch. That's why in management it is oftentimes recommended that you don't have more than seven or nine direct subordinates because if you do, you start to lose concentration. On the other hand, the subconscious mind, which is in charge of the body, is doing millions and billions of things at the same moment.

DiCarlo: Elmer Green ran various experiments with Jack Schwarz at the Menninger Institute. Schwarz is able, through his intention, to control certain bodily functions that are ordinarily believed to be beyond conscious control, such as heart rate, or blood-clotting ability. The way he does this is through a process that has come to be known as "passive volition", which I guess is really the optimal way to work with the subconscious. You are having a dance with the subconscious...it's a partnership. Not something that you directly control.

King: That's a fun way to operate. You don't directly control it- if you try, you'll build up a lot of tension. Passive volition is an excellent way to go. It's unusual in our modern society...The only thing we can do with our conscious mind, is focus our attention or shift that attention. That's really all we can do consciously. Everything else is done as a result of that.

Some people of course, have a command-like relationship with their own subconscious but it depends upon whether or not that commanding is done out of love and respect or whether that commanding is done as a superior to an inferior. That will determine what the response is. You can get good effects for a long time, though. A person can really push themselves let's say, to work in a particular way, to climb a mountain, to tolerate circumstances, but the tension keeps building. You can force your way through what your subconscious knows is not good for you, for a certain length of time, but at some point there is going to be breakdown. You are going to break something or you are going to get sick.

DiCarlo: How can we distinguish between the communications we receive from the subconscious mind and the superconscious mind if they both speak to us for example in dreams? What's the main difference?

King: When you are speaking that way, you imply that they are distinct and separate. On the one hand, these are not two separate things talking to you. Sometimes we get things directly from Spirit, and that's when we have a sudden knowing-a knowing with no doubt. There don't have to be any words, or any pictures. It's just there. Many times we are not consciously open to that, so then the communication has to be indirect. Then it comes through the subconscious in ways that are more accessible to us, and even then we don't always perceive it. So you can't really say there is communication from one or the other. We can't always tell when we are picking stuff from our own subconscious and spirit or whether we are picking up stuff from our environment, from memory information that's in the objects around us, or from telepathic reception with other people. It's all eventually coming from one source, but interpretation is the problem. So what we recommend is, since you cannot always be certain of the specific source at the moment, what matters is the information, not where it came from. Is it good? Is it useful?

DiCarlo: Many people talk about how we have become fragmented inside. How do we integrate the subconscious, conscious and superconscious. What happens when we do?

King: The way to integrate them first starts with awareness of these aspects. It's almost like you become aware of these aspects separately in order to bring them together. Becoming aware of their operation and their presence in your life is one step. Then the next step is learning to cooperate with them. You still make the decisions and give direction, but you also open yourself up for feedback. It's almost like a manager, who pays attention to the employees and then uses that information for the greater good of the company. This is the role of the conscious mind. So the listening is very important. Also, using that manager metaphor, you don't take an employee by the hand and move his hands or legs to get him to do what you want. What you do is you make it clear what you want, and then you let him do it.

You know when it's working well by the effect on your own feelings, and by your ability to handle things. See, we don't control the events. We can learn a great deal to influence them, but not control them. What matters more is not what happens, but what you do about what happens.

DiCarlo: Would you say this integration of subconscious, conscious and superconscious is equivalent to a transformation that some speak of? Or is that a different process entirely.

King: Well, you probably have to define transformation more clearly for me.

DiCarlo: I'm thinking in terms of the work being done in transpersonal psychology, where we are told we have a lower self, which would would be the physical, earth bound individual, and then a Higher Self which is the spiritual aspect of an individual. When there is a conscious connection between the lower self and the Higher Self, there tends to be a radical shift in awareness and understanding of reality and the emergence of different capabilities and characteristics.

King: Well, of course. That comes from the increased awareness and trust.

DiCarlo: Is there anything that happens on an energetic level when this process is underway?

King: We don't make that distinction. These are aspects of one nature. Not separate things. Transformation in the sense that we would use it, has to do with a growth in awareness, skills and happiness. An increase in those is equivalent growth. You can and may become something different-which is what transformation really means-but that depends upon your purpose. That is not seen as the ideal aim. Your lower self doesn't get transformed into a Higher Self. These are all part of you. At least while we are in this physical dimension.

DiCarlo: So the process an individual would go through to achieve this integration would be to clear these patterns, or as you term it negative complexes, learning how to guide the subconscious, making better use of the conscious mind, and contacting their superconscious?

King: Yes, but for a purpose. It's not an end in itself. That's one of the differences with this knowledge. It is for the purpose of enhancing all of life, because you are part of all of life. As you grow in awareness, you also grow in connection. You grow to realize other people are part of you. The wind is part of you. The stones, the mountains, the stars are part of you. Growth then, is an increase in skills.

DiCarlo: You discuss the idea of complexes in your work. What are they exactly and how are they created.

King: Well, it's a term that has to do with a grouping of ideas-that's the complex. It's a complexity of beliefs and attitudes and ideas. The term negative is applied when the results are negative. They are formed from decisions that are made, recorded and acted upon. Some of these decisions are made very early. Some of them then serve as a foundation for our whole way of looking at life, like stones form a foundation for the brick house which is built on top. Most of the time we are simply re-arranging the bricks, but if we could get down to the stones, that's where we can see radical changes, not only in our perceptions and awareness, but also in our skills and abilities.

DiCarlo: Would a complex be the same as what some people have termed, a "core issue?"

King: No, a complex would be everything related to the core issue. All the other ideas and things that were incorporated. Sometimes it's possible to go directly to the core. More often, there is a process we call "mahiki" which is a process of peeling away beliefs. It's like dismantling a house from the roof down. That's an approach which is entirely possible if you are not able to get to the foundation, or to begin with, if you are not aware that the foundation is there or what it's nature is.

DiCarlo: Could you give some examples of complexes and accompanying core issues?

King: Well, let's suppose a person has a behavior and the world feedback from that behavior suggests that something is present. For example, they live in constant fear and anxiety, they have low self esteem, they are at a job where they are not getting promoted, they are getting past over, or they are in relationships that always seem to fizzle out after a few months...There is an attitude they would have about life, and about themselves-a whole complex of ideas that is affecting them. As we start peeling that away, we start getting closer and closer to a core issue that has to do with self-esteem, and which creates an effect in all of these areas. Let's say I have a basic idea that I'm not good enough and that gives rise to, "I'm not good enough for this person to stay with me." Or, "I'm not good enough to get a promotion"...it has all those outreaches.